[“Hacking the Climate” Commonwealth Club, San Francisco, May 8, 2015]
>> GREG DALTON: Our next question at Climate One, welcome.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Hello, my name’s Patrick Roddie. All the discussion – public discussion – about solar radiation management has been about sulfates, whereas the research shows, as David Keith’s 2010 paper in particular, talks about nano-particulate aluminum and barium, both of which are highly toxic. Dr. Caldeira, I spoke to you before about your meeting at Lawrence Livermore when you talked about putting pathogens in the clouds to rain down on your enemies and do chemical and germ warfare – unquote – also a toxin. How can you reassure people that you’re not planning on – or actually currently – putting toxins into the environment and how can we prevent that from happening?
>> GREG DALTON: Use solar radiation management, which is a term for bouncing sun back into the sky. Ken Caldeira.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: So let me say that I don’t remember – you know that I don’t want to assert that everything that was said in that question is correct.
[“Hack the Sky,” David Brower Center, Berkeley, May 9th, 2013]
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Back when you were at Lawrence Livermore you were on record as proposing putting pathogens into clouds to rain over enemy territory.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: That’s not true.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: I have audio.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Show me it.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: I can play it to you; I’ve got it on my iPhone.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: OK
[cut to 2010 interview]
>> KEN CALDEIRA: I used to work at Lawrence Livermore National Lab and I once participated in a meeting where we all sat around the room and thought about how we could manipulate geophysical systems to use it as a weapon. The meeting was about weaponizing geophysical interventions. That means, you know, could you somehow interfere with Earth functioning in a way that you could use it as a military weapon. Could you change climate, what could you do in terms of manipulating Earth’s physical systems.
>> INTERVIEWER: (inaudible)
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Well you know some of the ideas were, OK , maybe we could blow up hydrogen bombs, you know, underwater, offshore and make a tidal wave that would go over a city. And you know the result was isn’t it easier just to drop the hydrogen bombs on the city. You know that, that… Now you could imagine though, say, putting pathogens in a cloud, let the cloud, you know, go over somewhere and then would rain down on your enemy and create, you know, do chemical or germ warfare in this kind of way.
[back to “Hack the Sky,” David Brower Center, Berkeley, May 9th, 2013]
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Yeah, this is true.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Yeah. So we were in a room and somebody said “oh, if you wanted to sort of kill, uh, weaponise things, could you” – right? And I was just saying… And the conclusion was basically no.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: But don’t…
>> KEN CALDEIRA: But that’s a different thing.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: But don’t you agree that, um, that would cause pause for people who find you proposing seeding clouds, that in the past you talked about putting pathogens…
>> KEN CALDEIRA: No, I – first of all, I think you’re putting words in my mouth.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: I just played your words back to you.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: No, no. I said I was in a meeting where people brought up the issue of could you weaponise geophysical systems – and the conclusion was no. And so if you’re going to… I could lie and say I wasn’t in such a meeting; I could make up stories to you. This man (pointing to John Fitzgerald) accuses me of lying so I don’t talk to him anymore, and so if you want me, you know, I’m just telling you the facts. I was in a room, people asked could you weaponise geophysical systems and the answer was no. OK, and you’re going to take a sentence out of context…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: I’m not… oh, no
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Or this man or someone will take a sentence out of context right now and put it on the web and, and, and take out the point, um…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Do you… so you don’t find that would, could cause people concern that…
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Well I find it concern that people take little clips of what I say, one sentence out of context and put it on the web instead of putting the whole context of, you know, and so…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: That you were discussing weather warfare.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: W-well, I, wuh – that I was in a room where it was brought up and that the conclusion was that there was no way to do it. And you’re not going to put that on the web. You’re going to put…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: I’m going to put it all up.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: You’ll put the part that says it was discussed and you’ll put out the part that says the idea was rejected. A-a-a-and, and I don’t have a security clearance, I’m not in anything, you know there. I was in a room, somebody brought it up, it was discussed briefly and rejected and, and and, and so because I’m open and, and talk about what I know, uh, you know, I have to suffer idiots taking little soundbites out of context and putting them on the web.
>> JOHN FITZGERALD: Idiots? There you go, that was nice to say! Oh and by the way, just a recommendation…
>> KEN CALDEIRA: I don’t want to talk to you! Because no! I don’t want to talk to you!
>> JOHN FITZGERALD: Stop mentioning Dick Cheney all the time.
>> WOMAN: You talk about how [inaudible]
>> MAN: Be civil.
>> WOMAN: He does, there are recordings of him saying it. He’s a liar…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: I played it to him.
>> WOMAN: You environmentalist idiots are falling for the biggest hoax that ever was.
[Back to “Hacking the Climate” Commonwealth Club, San Francisco, May 8, 2015]
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Uh, one reason why people are looking at sulfur is because that’s what volcanoes do, but you’re right that scientists are thinking about other kinds of particles, including little microscopic bits of diamonds and things like that. The, uh, I think any major program would involve a huge number of, uh, flights and would have a huge infrastructure associated with it. I guess you could say that the, uh, Edward Snowden’s revelations show that the government can keep some things secret for a while, but I think any kind of big secret like this eventually comes public. So, I should also just say that I’m an academic scientist who, you know sits in front of a laptop computer all day long, and so, uh, I don’t do any kind of… I, I don’t have any kind of infrastructure of my own to go spray things around myself.
>> GREG DALTON: So, diamonds in the sky? So maybe Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds was not a code for LSD, it was a code for geoengineering?
>> KEN CALDEIRA: I just think that this, uh, you know there’s a lot of this selling, and, and, you know how things are spun. You know, actually, I’m very concerned that you know, we saw with the Bush administration that basically the American population accepted kidnapping and torture, accepted all these NSA knowing where we are and what we’re thinking all the time – and I think that if the Government announced, you know, that, oh, we’re putting diamonds in the sky to protect you from climate change and we’ve been doing that for the past decade, I think that people would largely accept it. So I think this idea that people are going to, you know, be up in arms about this when they weren’t up in arms about the Bush administration revelations, you know I feel this population will accept anything.
>> PANELIST: If you wanted to make money, you would keep the diamonds here on Earth.
>> GREG DALTON: This is Climate One and we’re talking about painting the sky – we’re not drinking, I promise. So let’s go to our next question.
[Informal talk after Commonwealth Club event, May 9th, 2015]
>> PATRICK RODDIE: So you said, uh, you were committed to truth.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Yeah.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Right, ah, when we last spoke – actually, no, it was two times back in Berkeley – and I played you the recording of your interview when you said the, that you were in a meeting at Lawrence Livermore Laboratories discussing how to weaponise…
>> KEN CALDEIRA: No, not how to, I, I think that…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Oh, so you – wait, wait, so you do remember it then?
>> KEN CALDEIRA: No, no, what I remember that there was a discussion – but you had – have you ever sat in a meeting and discussed weaponisation of climate alteration?
>> PATRICK RODDIE: So you do remember?
>> KEN CALDEIRA: No, no, I’m asking you a question. Answer my question first. Do you, have you ever sat in a meeting and discussed weather – would it be possible to weaponise any kind of environmental alteration?
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Not at a weapons lab.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: No, no, I’m asking you did you ever sit in a meeting and discuss whether it would be possible to weaponise any, some kind of, uh environmental alteration.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: I have discussed…
>> KEN CALDEIRA: See! OK…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: … I have discussed the Army, uh, the US Air Force’s document “Owning the Weather in 2025.”
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Do you remember the second half of what I said? I know that you type, uh…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: But so now you remember this? You now remember now? This is good, OK. You had no knowledge before.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Let me finish what I’m saying, no I… why don’t you shut the f*** up, OK? Because you – I’m saying this – ‘cause you don’t let me talk.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Please, please do.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: I know you record these little clips.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: I never edit.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Because you like to edit little things, right, ‘cause you don’t ever put the second half of what I say.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: I put the whole thing in last time.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: OK, what was the second half of the thing? That there was a discussion about whether it would be possible for anybody to use Earth system things as weapons and the conclusion is, was that it wouldn’t make any sense to do that and that there was no sensible way to weaponise Earth system processes.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: And one of the discussions…
>> KEN CALDEIRA: And so if the conclusion – if there was a discussion – amongst some people – I never had any security clearance – unsecured open discussion about… it was a… The question was raised would it be possible to weaponise manipulation of Earth system processes and the answer was no. And so, and…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: You’ve already admitted that, that was you on that tape. But then…
>> KEN CALDEIRA: What tape? But I don’t even know what tape.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: The one I played in your ear in Berkeley.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: I don’t remember all…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Oh, you – we had a Twitter back and forth.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: [Stutters] Then, then there’s no…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: So you…
>> KEN CALDEIRA: But I don’t remember every person who comes up to me and plays…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: But you certainly remember that conversation, because we spoke about it last time and you admitted that, yes, “I was there… “
>> KEN CALDEIRA: I frankly don’t remember talking to you before. I believe I might have, but my memory’s not so good, so I-I-I’m sure I did speak to you before – I said I did – but I don’t recollect.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Well OK, moving on slightly, the, um – you’ve read, uh, Dr Keith’s, uh, paper, the Photophoretic Levitation of Particles? The 2010 one? In that it says that the sulfates are actually ineffective and instead you should be using nano-particulate aluminum and barium.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: You’re quoting it incorrectly, but yeah.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: So why no discussion about, ah, things that are supposedly more effective?
>> KEN CALDEIRA: What? Why is there no discussion?
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Why, why why – in public – when you go to public things like the Commonwealth Club or, uh, the Hacking the Climate thing at, um, AAAS. You also…
>> KEN CALDEIRA: I’ve never studied anything other than… The only thing I’ve done in models is either turn down the sun or specify sulfate aerosols, so I try to…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: But you’re aware that – of all the research on aluminum and the fact that sulfates are ineffective?
>> KEN CALDEIRA: All the research? I’m aware… What research? No, that’s not… You’re putting – you’re trying to put words…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: The Weslbach seeding patent?
>> KEN CALDEIRA: What?
>> PATRICK RODDIE: The Weslbach seeding patent.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: I don’t even know.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Raytheon owns that – oh, you’re aware of that one.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: OK ah, f…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: The contrail… Oh, whatever, you know. Well, I’ll see you in Paris! Have a nice trip!
>> BRIAN ZITTLOW: You p***ed him off.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: So. That’s how you do it!
[AAAS Annual Meeting, San Jose, February 14th, 2015]
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Two last questions, very brief please.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: OK, so my concern is for the human health impacts of geoengineering. I know you’re talking about sulfates, and the aluminum stuff isn’t discussed and I wouldn’t expect any of you to speak about a covert operation but the, uh… Respiratory failure has gone from the eighth leading cause of death to the third…
>> KEN CALDEIRA: We’re not going for a speech
>> PATRICK RODDIE: No, no, no, no. The question is: how can we have faith in organizations such as yourselves to take care of things like that when you yourself, as we spoke last time, discussed putting pathogens in clouds?
>> KEN CALDEIRA: Um, just… I-I’ve you know I happen to be a reviewer, reviewing a paper right now on health impacts of solar geoengineering that’s, uh, suggesting that many thousands of deaths would be caused by the aerosols but small relative to what the sulfates are.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: Not what you said at… But my concern is why isn’t there more emphasis on the human health impacts. And does it effect the credibility of the panel?
>> ALAN ROBUCK: The question is why aren’t we looking more at health impacts of geoengineering.
>> PATRICK RODDIE: And not just sulfates, the other substances such as aluminum, barium and strontium.
>> ALAN ROBUCK: … and other imaginary substances we’re not considering putting into the atmosphere. So, the reason we’re concerned about global warming is because of the health impacts. Global warming, as Michael pointed out earlier, has a lot of negative effects on the health of people around the world…
>> PATRICK RODDIE: The third leading cause of death being respiratory failure now?
>> KEN CALDEIRA: OK, we’re really coming to the last minutes so we’re done.
>> ALAN ROBUCK: If you’re gonna keep interrupting me, I’ll just ignore you.
>> KEN CALDEIRA: So let’s just go to the next, last question.